HSMF arrest story [OMFG!!]
Moderators: Cleantone, harrymcq, Phrazz
hsmf
for u folks at the top responding to the story... think it is your family that is effected...how would that make u feel??? show alittle compassion... i had to go throught this all last year w/ nathan of smmd fame... and it totally sucked... the cops are like a pig in shit at these festivals... it is time that we stand up for our family all of our brothers and sisters... lead the revolution....
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tonygaboni
- Beantown Rocker
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:16 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
Re: warning - tangent taken...
Exactly. If there really were cops at the Phish fests, and now I'm vaguely remembering seeing some on horse, then there couldn't have been many if I don't even remember seeing them. There obviously wasn't a POLICE PRESENCE at these festivals, compared to HS where there clearly is a POLICE PRESENCE. And a music festival in this scene, or any scene for that matter, with police presence is a problem. At least for me, and that's my point.lumpy wrote:excuse the tangent:
In regards to cops at phish fests, you must just not have seen them. From patrolling cops on horses, to golf carts, to foot patrols. There were most certainly cops at all of em.
.
Give us the Teachings of His Majesty, we don't want no devil philosophy.
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magpie
- Flood of Joyful Existence Waters
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:56 pm
- Location: humboldt county, ca
seems to me there's a few points here...
1) the cops at high sierra are on a fishing expedition and are going beyond legal decency in order to arrest as many people as possible...
2) the laws (as they stand for offenses such as these) are heavy-handed and unrelated to the effectual seriousness of the offense (as in, are they actually harming anyone).
3) if you're going to be at a festival participating in an activity deemed by the local cops as illegal, you'd better fucking be careful (see #1 and #2)
the main points that need to be addressed here, in my opinion, are #1 and #2.
it seems, however, that several comments in this thread are focused primarily on #3... this is unfortunate and indicative of the state of hopelessness/helplessness that pervades our culture with regard to our power to change things.
do you want situations as have been described to continue? do you want to go to festivals and have to worry about always watching behind your back? i agree that sometimes people get out of hand and forget that they are not as safe as they may think... and maybe stupid people smoking pot in front of a cop should be busted simply because they should know better... but that's not what's going on here. what's happening is cops going into camps when no one is around (cause they're out seeing music), searching through shit for no compelling reason, and if they find something, they hang around camp waiting for someone to return so they can be arrested. last year in my camp the cops searched a tent for absolutely no reason, and they didn't find a thing... the tent was owned by a couple with a 5 year old kid. this year, the cops searched through another tent in my camp without cause, oddly enough owned by another couple with a kid... and guess what, they didn't find a thing. my point is, the cops aren't just going after folks who appear to be doing something wrong... they're being completely subversive and random. how would you like it if cops had the freedom to come into your neighborhood and randomly select a house to search, without any justifiable cause? well folks, that's the situation we're facing here.
1) the cops at high sierra are on a fishing expedition and are going beyond legal decency in order to arrest as many people as possible...
2) the laws (as they stand for offenses such as these) are heavy-handed and unrelated to the effectual seriousness of the offense (as in, are they actually harming anyone).
3) if you're going to be at a festival participating in an activity deemed by the local cops as illegal, you'd better fucking be careful (see #1 and #2)
the main points that need to be addressed here, in my opinion, are #1 and #2.
it seems, however, that several comments in this thread are focused primarily on #3... this is unfortunate and indicative of the state of hopelessness/helplessness that pervades our culture with regard to our power to change things.
do you want situations as have been described to continue? do you want to go to festivals and have to worry about always watching behind your back? i agree that sometimes people get out of hand and forget that they are not as safe as they may think... and maybe stupid people smoking pot in front of a cop should be busted simply because they should know better... but that's not what's going on here. what's happening is cops going into camps when no one is around (cause they're out seeing music), searching through shit for no compelling reason, and if they find something, they hang around camp waiting for someone to return so they can be arrested. last year in my camp the cops searched a tent for absolutely no reason, and they didn't find a thing... the tent was owned by a couple with a 5 year old kid. this year, the cops searched through another tent in my camp without cause, oddly enough owned by another couple with a kid... and guess what, they didn't find a thing. my point is, the cops aren't just going after folks who appear to be doing something wrong... they're being completely subversive and random. how would you like it if cops had the freedom to come into your neighborhood and randomly select a house to search, without any justifiable cause? well folks, that's the situation we're facing here.
<i>become...
but remember that you already
are</i>
but remember that you already
are</i>
I deem...
...heavy-handed police fishing expeditions to be unlawful, and so do my attorneys. 
The law is much more than just a bunch of words on paper. The Law is also The People. What doesn't affect anyone should not be considered detrimental to society. Why not just make fun illegal? Actually, that's the plan of the Other Side...to keep fun legal is tantamount to the promotion of a special quality of Justice. For if all fun is considered illegal, what good are Laws? Certainly not to keep us all from our dogs pooping on the neighbors' lawns (actually I haven't had a dog since college, but you get my point this is a worse crime than harmless fun at a concert).
Now not all cops view the law in the same way (though they might argue they do or think they do, they also make decisions all the time about who to bust and who not to bust and why). There's good cops and bad cops and everyone in between. My suggestion is if you can see the good in even the bad cops maybe you can see good in all people. Or maybe not. But at least when it's a public event, the public has to stick together. Rallying support is difficult, but often it only takes two people to make a stand. And one of them so often may happen to be an attorney. Or maybe a schoolteacher...or a writer...or a mariner. There are many layers to society and it's not always Us vs Them (but it gets that way when the situation is forced...it's just not the norm to every cop...some have bad days and some are just bullies...but I've met some very cool cops as well as politicians, you just have to know what to look for in character).
The other thing is the law-abiders obviously won't stick their necks out and just say everyone should be teetotallers (even not drinking, which is ok if you do that for health reasons and don't force everyone into your ice cube mold). But the law-abiders, law-enforcers and law-fixers I know have a much more advanced view of society, and they'd all agree that there are times when extreme behavior causes overreaction (this is not just bad, it causes strife...but relatively depends on each situation and the people involved...what's heinously uncomfortable and unforgiveable to someone may make others think is cakewalk based on real physical discomfort like a bullet wound or a cracked skull). But when overreaction leads to cracked skulls, then we can see the route of complete control leads to horrors, even if it starts small...it has to be checked or it will escalate.
The courts really have a say in what the law means, even when the cops think they know the law. Remember also the cops don't make the laws. We make the laws. And we fix the laws by voting (if you don't vote, maybe you can fix things in other ways with the right influence...I used to think only voting was the only way to influence the government...but I was completely wrong about that in practice...in theory it's nice to think anyways).
So basically there are sides to this argument than can never be resolved. East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. People will always agree to disagree, and when it comes to law, very few people will argue the validity of the law. I think you have to come to a strong personal understanding of what you think is "just" or "fair" to be able to make such an advanced distinction. But I can assure you the law is far from perfect. It's always changing and that's a sign of progress (or regress). We can only band together and try to change it for the better good over a long period of time through tiny little victories (I can see these even when people get tagged at festivals if they fight and win). Hope is sometimes all you need, but hope with a plan and support is a powerful combination.
If we don't stick together, we'll all fall apart.
-Phrazz
The law is much more than just a bunch of words on paper. The Law is also The People. What doesn't affect anyone should not be considered detrimental to society. Why not just make fun illegal? Actually, that's the plan of the Other Side...to keep fun legal is tantamount to the promotion of a special quality of Justice. For if all fun is considered illegal, what good are Laws? Certainly not to keep us all from our dogs pooping on the neighbors' lawns (actually I haven't had a dog since college, but you get my point this is a worse crime than harmless fun at a concert).Now not all cops view the law in the same way (though they might argue they do or think they do, they also make decisions all the time about who to bust and who not to bust and why). There's good cops and bad cops and everyone in between. My suggestion is if you can see the good in even the bad cops maybe you can see good in all people. Or maybe not. But at least when it's a public event, the public has to stick together. Rallying support is difficult, but often it only takes two people to make a stand. And one of them so often may happen to be an attorney. Or maybe a schoolteacher...or a writer...or a mariner. There are many layers to society and it's not always Us vs Them (but it gets that way when the situation is forced...it's just not the norm to every cop...some have bad days and some are just bullies...but I've met some very cool cops as well as politicians, you just have to know what to look for in character).
The other thing is the law-abiders obviously won't stick their necks out and just say everyone should be teetotallers (even not drinking, which is ok if you do that for health reasons and don't force everyone into your ice cube mold). But the law-abiders, law-enforcers and law-fixers I know have a much more advanced view of society, and they'd all agree that there are times when extreme behavior causes overreaction (this is not just bad, it causes strife...but relatively depends on each situation and the people involved...what's heinously uncomfortable and unforgiveable to someone may make others think is cakewalk based on real physical discomfort like a bullet wound or a cracked skull). But when overreaction leads to cracked skulls, then we can see the route of complete control leads to horrors, even if it starts small...it has to be checked or it will escalate.
The courts really have a say in what the law means, even when the cops think they know the law. Remember also the cops don't make the laws. We make the laws. And we fix the laws by voting (if you don't vote, maybe you can fix things in other ways with the right influence...I used to think only voting was the only way to influence the government...but I was completely wrong about that in practice...in theory it's nice to think anyways).
So basically there are sides to this argument than can never be resolved. East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. People will always agree to disagree, and when it comes to law, very few people will argue the validity of the law. I think you have to come to a strong personal understanding of what you think is "just" or "fair" to be able to make such an advanced distinction. But I can assure you the law is far from perfect. It's always changing and that's a sign of progress (or regress). We can only band together and try to change it for the better good over a long period of time through tiny little victories (I can see these even when people get tagged at festivals if they fight and win). Hope is sometimes all you need, but hope with a plan and support is a powerful combination.
If we don't stick together, we'll all fall apart.
-Phrazz
This is one of the most intelligent threads I think I have read, and it is born out of our sense of community and our need to have fun with people with similar interests.
Although many of us have differing beliefs on how one should behave at a festival, we still agree that the police presence is a huge downer. We can't expect the cops to always turn the other cheek, unfortunately, when it comes to 'soft' drugs. The whole issue of alcohol and its detrimental effects, and the leniency of those offenses is a joke for the most part, but I digress...
DON'T LET THE COPS RUIN YOUR GOOD TIME! GO TO HSMF, LISTEN TO THE MUSIC PLAY!
I have been to many festivals in the US, Canada, and Europe - folk, bluegrass, jazz, blues, fringes, film, jamband and rock n'roll, and there has always been a police presence, and I don't think that that will ever change. I have seen people taken advantage of by cops who were so screwed up that they didn't know what was happening. I even know of a person who was facing a felony charge of trying to overthrow the US gov't because he had sugar cubes of LSD in his car that some hitcher put between the seats. But at the same time, I have also seen cops totally ignore people smoking joints (i.e., Sugarbush Phish) and laughing at all of them holding signs 'NEED NUGS' or 'GOT MOLLY?' There is no concensus within law enforcement about how the laws are to be enforced, and that is part of the problem too. There is also lack of knowledge within the community to what those laws pertain.
There is also the issue of hard drugs like Xtal, coke and heroine which I have seen at too many shows and fests in my time too. Tell me, is that really necessary? What gives someone the gall to do that? Do they think it is within their RIGHT to do so? I know it's hard people, but you can see why the cops and authorities are having such a hard time.
We have to be aware of how we are being perceived as a group AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER. It is bull that cops are basically 'hunting people down' in what seems to make examples of them and/or to set the mind's of the locals at ease, but that is the way it is. My fear is not of being busted, but that the festivals will cease to exist or to be fun.
To me fun ain't about the booze and drugs, even though I would be hypocritical to say that 'recreational experimentation' and the odd buzz-on are a blast on occasion, but it is about the tunes and the memories. Cops ain't going ruin it for me. If I don't give them a reason, then they won't have a reason to bother me.
Although many of us have differing beliefs on how one should behave at a festival, we still agree that the police presence is a huge downer. We can't expect the cops to always turn the other cheek, unfortunately, when it comes to 'soft' drugs. The whole issue of alcohol and its detrimental effects, and the leniency of those offenses is a joke for the most part, but I digress...
DON'T LET THE COPS RUIN YOUR GOOD TIME! GO TO HSMF, LISTEN TO THE MUSIC PLAY!
I have been to many festivals in the US, Canada, and Europe - folk, bluegrass, jazz, blues, fringes, film, jamband and rock n'roll, and there has always been a police presence, and I don't think that that will ever change. I have seen people taken advantage of by cops who were so screwed up that they didn't know what was happening. I even know of a person who was facing a felony charge of trying to overthrow the US gov't because he had sugar cubes of LSD in his car that some hitcher put between the seats. But at the same time, I have also seen cops totally ignore people smoking joints (i.e., Sugarbush Phish) and laughing at all of them holding signs 'NEED NUGS' or 'GOT MOLLY?' There is no concensus within law enforcement about how the laws are to be enforced, and that is part of the problem too. There is also lack of knowledge within the community to what those laws pertain.
There is also the issue of hard drugs like Xtal, coke and heroine which I have seen at too many shows and fests in my time too. Tell me, is that really necessary? What gives someone the gall to do that? Do they think it is within their RIGHT to do so? I know it's hard people, but you can see why the cops and authorities are having such a hard time.
We have to be aware of how we are being perceived as a group AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER. It is bull that cops are basically 'hunting people down' in what seems to make examples of them and/or to set the mind's of the locals at ease, but that is the way it is. My fear is not of being busted, but that the festivals will cease to exist or to be fun.
To me fun ain't about the booze and drugs, even though I would be hypocritical to say that 'recreational experimentation' and the odd buzz-on are a blast on occasion, but it is about the tunes and the memories. Cops ain't going ruin it for me. If I don't give them a reason, then they won't have a reason to bother me.